Return of the Golden Hoof: Groundswell 2024
This session at Groundswell 2024 was organised by Agricology and the National Sheep Association (NSA).
When people talk about bringing grassland and sheep back onto arable land, you often hear older generation shepherds use the phrase ‘the golden hoof.’ It used to be commonplace for sheep to be considered useful on arable farms. Fast forward to now, and specialist arable and cropping farmers are recognising the need to improve soil structure and fertility and find alternative controls for problem weeds.
The session was chaired by Phil Stocker (NSA) and features John Pawsey (Shimpling Park Farms) https://agricology.co.uk/farmer-profiles/john-pawsey/ and Robert Spink. John talked about the challenges and rewards of re-introducing sheep (1,000 New Zealand Romneys) to their 700 ha organic arable farm. Robert has come a long way from his initial starter flock of a handful of sheep grazing 4 acres, establishing a 600-ewe New Zealand Romney flock as well as a store lamb finishing business of 2,000-3,000 lambs per year. Robert has taken advantage of local opportunities to grow his sheep business on the family farm on the Norfolk/Suffolk border.
Discussions centre around what you need to think about before re-introducing sheep, and what makes a good grazing agreement.
Highlights
- 🐑 Increased sheep integration into arable farming benefits the ecosystem.
- 🌱 Organic practices enhance soil fertility and crop diversity.
- 🤝 Collaboration between sheep and arable farmers fosters community support.
- 💼 New business opportunities arise from sheep farming partnerships.
- 📈 Sheep farming is experiencing growth in lowland areas.
- 🌾 Sustainable practices are crucial for healthy crop rotations.
- 🔍 Biosecurity measures are vital for managing livestock health.
Key Insights
- 🐑 Integration of Sheep into Arable Farming: The return of sheep into arable systems helps improve soil health and crop yields, creating a more sustainable farming model. This integration contributes positively to biodiversity and environmental health.
- 🌱 Organic Farming and Fertility: Organic practices, such as using sheep for fertility building, demonstrate effective methods to enhance soil quality while promoting ecological balance. This shift reflects the growing trend toward sustainable agriculture.
- 🤝 Importance of Relationships: Building strong relationships between sheep farmers and arable farmers is essential for successful grazing arrangements and mutual benefits. Trust and communication can lead to long-lasting partnerships.
- 💼 Opportunities for Young Farmers: The return of sheep farming presents accessible opportunities for young and new entrants into agriculture, reducing capital barriers compared to other farming sectors.
- 📈 Market Dynamics: The sheep farming market is expected to grow, supported by global demand and improved farming practices. This growth can help stabilize local economies and farming communities.
- 🌾 Sustainable Farming Incentives: Utilizing sustainable farming incentives encourages diverse crop rotations and effective use of cover crops, enhancing both sheep health and crop productivity.
- 🔍 Biosecurity Awareness: Implementing rigorous biosecurity measures is critical for maintaining flock health and preventing disease spread, ensuring the long-term success of integrated farming systems.
Transcriptions
And welcome to this uh seminar which is uh called uh the return of the golden hoof and um it's it's all about sheep uh we've got a really short sharp session we've only got 25 minutes we've got to keep it really really tight um and it's a really complex subject too so I hope you enjoy it um can I start by I'll start by introducing myself I'm Phil stalker I'm chief executive of the national sheep Association
Afficher la suite
and I would say that we're seeing some really interesting an exciting growth in this area this return of sheep back into Aral rotational farming and that's great for lots of different reasons it's great for sheep it's great for arable cropping it's great for the environment and it's great for the landscape and it's great for uh new employment opportunities and business opportunities too so there's some real opportunities here I think and it's uh it's it's it's really good to be able to do this uh this Seminar can I just ask some questions first as to who we've got in the audience can I ask how many of you are sheep Farmers already okay and how many of you are arable Farmers there could be some crossover this as well yeah so it's about probably more sheep Farmers than Aral Farmers slightly terrifying yeah so would you like to all come up here and tell us what what what you're doing and are many of you actually involved in keeping sheep within Aral rotations already so again quite a few okay good okay what we're going to do the The Rules of Engagement for this seminar too are really there are no rules uh we're going to take questions if people want to ask questions as we go through feel free um if I can just ask you to be polite and patient until a microphone arrives with you that would be appreciated so we're going to go quickly to introductions from our two speakers and then um we'll we'll we'll get going so John um yeah so my name is John py I farm uh just below Baris NE suffk uh we converted our farm to organic production in 1999 and my ambition was to run a stopless arable rotation CU why on Earth or do I want to get a complicated animal on the farm uh and sort of make my life Mis miserable um uh but it got to around about 2014 and uh we realized that we wanted to build more fertility within our organic rotation uh so I wanted to go to two to three year lays rather than the single year of just fertility building we' were doing and so I looked at all the different options available to me in terms of livestock and I just saw sheep as the lowest capital cost of actually getting Livestock on the farm um so we I think we had the first uh uh 250 uh uh Lambs arrived on the farm in 2014 great thank you John and over to Robert Robert yeah I'm Robert um farm near ber NE as well in between B NE and dis in suffk um running 600 New Zealand Romney uh lamming outside out wined um on top of that through the winter time we take on about 3,000 Lambs uh store Lambs uh coming on keep to us which we run over various uh different arable farms and with different Arrangements uh with landlords um probably over the whole year we'd worked with sort of 15 or 20 different landlords all on varying different Arrangements um Lambs are sold fat through aqm good good thanks Robert so it's funny how the world Goes Around in Circles isn't it really I can start I can remember back to starting my farming career and working on a large arable estate in North Wilshire actually and uh at that time uh we used to call uh the Sheep the golden hoof and they were an integral part of the farming system I guess as was grass within a a rotation um and we used to use the sheep for uh uh maintaining permanent pasture but also for helping to establish new Lays by encouraging those lays to to root and tillate we used to use the Sheep actually for grazing winter cereals particularly oats you in the winter time to again try encourage tillering and uh help control diseases as well and um you know I would say that those uh that was a very sustainable system and and we all know that a agriculture changed in that time um the the Sheep industry has changed massively over that period of time and I think we're at a really exciting stage now where we're using technology in a really smart way so that we can choose the right sheep we can really try and track uh parasite loads we can try and uh understand disease pressures more control diseases and we're and we've got things like um electric fencing that we can uh move around the the farm as well we've got a much uh better choice I think of sheep genetics in terms of what we put on our Farms as well so we're in a much better place I think to see that reintroduction of sheep but you've got to start somewhere we're rebuilding an agricultural system if you like and you've got to start somewhere and I I guess you start by thinking about how you go about it and where you sawce sheet from and which sheep you want to bring bring in so John how was you uh yes so we you know we wanted a um a a breed that could La outside uh and actually you know be contained within electric fencing which generally they are um and so we started looking at different breeds and I went to the big event the NSA event uh near Wales is it actually in Wales or near Wales M near Wales near Wales okay and so I went to that on my own first of all I I realized that sheep um people are really friendly uh you know arable people are really Dr ful and uh they're really friendly and also a lot more there's a lot uh more there's there's there's you know boys and girls all involved as well which is arable all about men actually to be quite honest it's a doubly doll uh so that was really exciting and so we looked at lots of different breeds and um we sort of settled on there was an easy care there was a Clint and there was the New Zealand Romney and so um uh and so it was about how do we get hold of them but how do we choose that we ended up with a New Zealand Romney we now got about a thousand of them but actually what happened you know they were so so sort of comparable in what they might deliver and there was one Sunday morning Alice and I were lying in bed and Alice said to me can I just have a look at the three different Brees you're thinking about and uh we looked at the three different Brees and we thought the Romy looked slightly more attractive uh so that's the only reason why we went down that route uh which I think is a very good very good way of picking it uh if you I what I knew is I didn't want one that looked like a pig which is a txel uh but funny enough we actually Crossing one with the txel at the moment but anyway sorry I probably said a Dreadful thing there um but uh and also organically what I was really worried about was also getting a lots of little lots of um you know sheep from different Farms ring the farm for sort of biocurity reasons and so I did actually get a deration to uh buy 250 um uh uh Lambs from a lovely man called Harry meta down in R near Romney Marsh and uh we were able to to to to just do that in one block of for sort of Health reasons uh and then we bought another 20050 the next year and then after that we've readed from our own Replacements but um yeah breed is really important especially in organic system but also in a system where actually wanted it want it to be extensive and John you took the decision to set up a breeding flock you know a flock of views and and obviously breed lambs and just sell Lambs but Robert there's other ways of going about this too isn't there really particularly with this um interesting uh I suppose more sensitive manage many management of many of our Uplands as well you know you don't have to have a breeding flock no no well there a massive part of what we do now is taking sheep in on keep which can take various different forms uh plenty of people you put you Lambs down for the winter time but how we do it we take on store Lambs uh from somebody up north uh they come in uh we put them under cover crops turnips um Etc and we'll finish them for him and send them off fat um but it doesn't have to be to that extent I mean you could you know just run cheap through and sell them again you know so there there's various different ways of doing it um I think what John said there you know about the bio security stuff is you know incredibly important really um particularly if you're going to try you know if you're going to try and do both I mean we've fall and foul of it you know a couple of times over the years but we're now running you know different Farms with with the store Lambs away from the use Etc and we we have done that right through but you know we're very very in adamant that we do it like that um but I think the only thing whatever you do is start right would be my you know one thing I'd say from what I've done is just start right with your bio security in and move forward from there um but no certainly there's so many different ways of of going about the job it is so important to start right isn't it there isn't enough room for error there's no room for error or a margin for error is there you've got to try to start right and take advice oh definitely yeah well I'm a big fan of that I'll always ask anybody for you know all sorts of different questions but you know I think that the start right one is is would be the one thing if I could start again I would start right if you see what I mean um we we fell foul of um of uh abortion unfortunately with the first 12 sheep that I bought didn't know anything about it at all um it was they were really bought on a whim really and then uh uh just by chance we were sort of convinced to Lam them it just goes on and on the story really but um we ended up with this breeding FL we've got now but the mules we had before the Romney were you we were really marred with it really and if only I could go back and start again um we wouldn't have done it that way so and as John was saying you sheep Farmers generally are pretty helpful and pretty friendly and there's lots of advice out there just it's choosing the right device isn't it really but uh you know making sure that sheep are coming from a foundation I guess where they've got some health Assurance behind them and you got some understanding of the of the health status and making sure that you quarantine quarantine and uh apply some biocurity measures as well that you're not passing disease on within the flock is really really important but this is about the reintroduction of sheep into arable systems as well let's think a little bit about the crops and the grass and the establishment of and what you what you graze them on as well uh you know we've seen some great interesting new options coming through now with SFI the sustainable farming incentive so how do you manage your your your your lays or your forage crops J um I think what's interesting about establishment under seing of lays is it it's not just for sheep and we're all doing this now with the sort of sustainable farming incentive with you know legum lays but also herbal lays and uh and it's a real challenge actually getting that unding right and we at the very beginning we started by uh under under sewing uh not under sewing sorry sewing after harvest and actually going to dry soils and actually if you got an early Frost if you don't get those clovers past their sort of like first true Leaf stage they can be killed by a frost and uh we found that it was much easier to undo them but then of course you got to undo them at the right time so the crop can doesn't close over too quick so the Clover is kept too small and it can be eaten by slugs or or satona Weevil uh so the timing of that's really really right and actually how we've what we've ended up with and actually was completely cribbed off um uh a wonderful Farm manager at sandam called Keith banam and he always unders soed underneath uh spring oats and um the most The crucial thing is to let the Clover get enough light to get it through to its first two true leaves uh and and with because oats are so competitive you can actually sew them at the same time or the day after sewing your oats so they come up they got lots of light but then the grow oats grow tall enough to keep the Clover suppressed so um that's a top tip and I think you know since we' be started doing that it's been very successful um and and of course you know the the kind of mixtures that you put into these things is is wide and varied and everyone asks you know what would but actually really depends on your soul type what does best for you and it's something you learn over a long period of time uh but it's it's it's wide and complex and Robert are you involved to shing any the green cover crops the green manuring crops um root crops yeah no definitely yeah major part of of again what we do all of our own Lambs are finished on on the green covers and cover crops turnips Etc you know we are um yeah we're reliant on them really we don't feed any sheep any any hard feed um yeah so they're integral to what we do really um it's interesting it the the any word you know the interesting part is is how that those mixes as they come forward and people want to use them with sheep uh to make sure that they are still you know able to be used fully by the Sheep you know to as as a Graz you we want you know we want to come onto the farms and and graze these crops but they have to be you know suited to to the Sheep as well for that to work let's just talk for a second about you how this happens in practice as well the business Arrangements because I think John you you you own your own sheep and you've you you've got a Shepherd but we got a growing number of examples now where um uh particularly young people I think are owning flying flocks and they're and they're grazing other people's land actually uh through either a short-term grazing agreement agreement or or a partner ship those sorts of things but that's all about the right people isn't it it's about relationships and making sure that um that you're reliable reputable do the right thing so again any comments on that Robert yeah I think that's absolutely right I think that if you're going to go into somebody else's farm with your sheep you need to be A1 um and that's what we've always tried to do um I'm sure I've not always got it right to you know but we always try try our very best um I think you know we we would go on well often on a handshake to be perfect honest around us you know we s know quite a lot of the Farms that we're involved with but some other places we do have um you know grazing agreements with um I think the key thing there is is just do a good job and and just you know often the the major sticking point of a lot of things we do is when people want you off um and that's the one thing that we've always been tried to be very good with is that you know if somebody says you know want you off by say the first of February you know get off you know and and clear up properly behind yourself and get on really and then it builds from there and hopefully you know you come back next year so um yeah no I think it's it's all about communication relationship for people um and you know and just doing what you say you're going to do really a lot of the time and for a young person coming in it is an achievable step isn't it in terms of the capital requirement compared to some other farming Enterprises oh certainly yeah I mean we we started off with what we were doing 10 years ago with 12 sheep um and they've built up from there the first cover cover crops we' have grazed uh was um f radish I think 10 years ago um I think I had to ring around and ask what F radish was at the time is it even possible really you know it was it was something we just got stuck in and it sort of snowball from there but you know we started from a small base and have built up how you know as you're saying you know we can we get going electric fence it's a massive opportunity really I forgot to say in the introduction you we have got 6 Acres at home which is down J 4 so we have got headquarters um but there's no way we could be doing what we're doing without building those relationships with local farmers so um yeah really important great say I was I was one of those local farmers that Robert built a relationship with cuz actually Robert actually looked after our sheep until we got to well two or three years ago but Robert and this is a really important Point actually going on people's Farms is that Robert really understood when coming on to our farm because it was mainly a naral rotation when we're putting up the electric fences they had to follow the edges of the field so we weren't left with funny little Corners with all load of rubbish sort of growing up because being organic we couldn't deal with that and also Robert really perfected um back fencing and grazing grazing our um overwinter cover crops as well uh and so that sort of kind of detail for an arable farmer is incredibly important and uh Robert did that amazingly on my farm but it's it's it's it's the detail is is incredibly important as far as I'm concerned and uh so focus on the detail yeah John I don't think you're alone and as you know on my journey here this morning I've had three conversations with people about this and uh quite often that it comes up that the I wouldn't say money is not important because money is important but quite often U reputability responsibility doing what you promise to do is every bit as respon as as important as a money transaction and exactly um and and the other thing is in talking about young people coming on farms when Robert came with his team he managed to Har the average age of our Farm Workers you know overnight so it was brilliant yeah brilliant okay well before we open up for some questions I did say there were no rules and people want to to ask questions please put your hands up it's j to see very much from here because we've being blinded actually but uh before we come to questions or while the mics go around can I just ask John quickly if you were to do it again what would you do uh what did you do right and what did you do wrong what would you do differently if you were to do this again if we can get the microphones there's a gentleman over here please to to be honest because you know we really thought about it very hard when we bought the uh Romney onto our farm um I think it's all gone pretty well I yeah I I think the only thing I would say is that sometimes with some of our unstone L when they haven't gone terribly well we have had areas of overgrazing and I find that really upsetting uh we're not in that place now well we have had it um yeah excellent okay thanks so gentleman here we uh really like cover hello hello is that it's gone again okay we grow o rap in our rotation and we go crops and we uh we have sheeps again how do I do it uh when we are going to grow for uh grazing and is breaking up is there another microphone Che with no bras what is the mix uh when you drop the brass stickers would you have any recommendations on what you can grow if you yeah if if you want to mind your o rotation and can you repeat question so so is it that if you trying to drop droing brassic because of the also R rot in the rotation what would what would you look to do what grow or would you grow um what would I grow um I um all I would say is is that um so when when we've gone on farms that I think are possibly in the same position as you have been we'd be grazing things like um black oat and vet and facila maybe um which has worked well over the years I'm not sure if that's really the answer the right answer but that's you know that's I think that's linked to the AY rate job so the the um yeah blackout fetch um radish I'm not sure would that go into the mix with that I'm not sure but you know um so maybe some more of those or forage Rye is another one we've grazed over the years you can get quite a good you know big mass of grazing there for you know in terms of the sheep so things so John have you got anything to add on that no I mean the only thing is that uh you know we um buckwhat um uh there's a problem with buckwheat with um you know sheep grazing that uh we we've always put a bit of BU wheat in has been very low levels and we've never seen a problem uh but I would quite like to as an arable farmer uh because the phosphate relationship I'd quite like to put some more buat in but probably not great for sheep yeah it's a balance isn't it really I mean you know everything you grow won't be ideal for sheep some will be planted purposefully for the for the for feeding sheep but they will be green cover crops yeah okay more questions more hands up there were more this gentleman here you stand up Propet might be so I guess it's question particularly for Robert you talked about 15 to 20 different types of relationship you've had with farmers and land owners and just what your advice would be is the one that works best for both sides um the one way he gets it for free I've yet to find that I've work no um both sides yeah both sides um so I suppose as I say a lot of the stuff we do youve talking about agreement sort of arrangement so you say I mean obviously you can go right into the the share farming side of things which admittedly I haven't been haven't gone down that road really but um and when when I worked with John at shipping Park Farms we sort of went in as we managed the sheet for John sort of thing so that it wasn't really a share share arrangement in that sense um but in terms of like looking at things like grazing licenses and um sort of the other way the handshake basically really I suppose it dep it my my advice there be is um try and find a middle ground that would suit you know that covers all bases if there's no no if there's no reputation involved with the person you're trying to deal with perhaps um or there's you know no references or whatever else and obviously perhaps a license in that sense and get bit everything on paper you know may be useful I mean to me it's no detriment to me to to have it to have it all written down and all the rest of it sort of thing if it but um I think that just covers the base unless you know for certain you're going to be all right you know maybe with with whoever you're working with does that answer your question yeah so much of it comes down to the individuals doesn't it and the and and and the people and and I guess there's lots of examples where people come in on a handshake agreement and they get to know each other and then a longer term Arrangement can come in on the back of that possibly I the share farming is obviously a very interesting way to developed yeah know certainly and to be to be honest we just actually had uh not really nothing to do our farming to say but we've we've actually just been offered the opportunity to look at that with somebody so in 6 weeks time probably do a bit more detail I'm afraid but yeah sh share farming is something that I think is is really good um I think it's it's a great way for people um especially new entrance and younger people to get into get into farming um you know I think it shares the cost everything else responsibility I think it it that could really work but I can't really give too much more detail I'm afraid there's lots of Opp examples as well where um you know people might be retiring and they want to stay living on the farm and they still want the Sheep on the farm and they find someone to come in to start to take that business over and they may take part ownership at the very early stages and then buy into the the business but it all comes down to the individuals and and being able to get on with each other doesn't it really liking each other I guess but sheep farmers are likeable people as John says they're lovely lovely people okay this lady here to be reti hold on for one moment if we get to the thank I'm retire on um and I just it interesting with with uh we want to get livestock back on the farm we're coming out of arable and we're taking about 57 hectares out this coming B and then drill put into grass so we're going to look for stop do you think there going to be enough stock to go around to graze all these C crops and all that sort of thing in the future and I agree it's a good opportunity for young people perhaps but not where we all get covered as it were where are you where where did you from um near John py actually okay he won't come he's organic he won't manage I'm s yeah I mean like as a general Trend I I I I think we're seeing like sheep sheep numbers in the lowlands on on the increase and that is probably on the back of this interest in uh the reintroduction of grass and more rotations and more multifunctional systems I guess and at the same time we are seeing ongoing pressure on sheet numbers in the Uplands and I think we're likely to see that continue I think that if we get it right we'll maintain our national flock numbers and there's certainly nothing in the market that would suggest that we couldn't do that the market is very very strong globally I think um you know there's always going to be volatility in our Market but globally I think our Market is set to be fairly positive for the foreseeable future So in theory there should be enough numbers around but it's all about getting to know people again I think that that's somewhere we the national sheep Association can help we can certainly bring people in in in contact with each other and we are working at the moment we're just about soon to launch Nicola um a new marrying up bu I guess where we've got sheet Farmers that looking for grazing that Aral Farmers could uh you know look into as well to try and create those those uh those links so um you know we've been doing that very successfully for many years in terms of connecting vets together with sheep Farmers for uh lambing support and we're going to roll that out to a land sharing um Arrangement as well and just going back to the Upland situation you know if you follow what's been going on on dartmore recently um and in the Lake District as well there's going to be much more pressure on those UPS I think in terms of uh the the right numbers of sheep at the right time in the right place and that will mean that more and more those farmers are looking for periods of the year when they can move their sheep down onto Aral Farms or dairy farms or whatever um somewhere else but that's again it's about bringing the right people together um and and and making sure they're two systems I guess can uh uh can work alongside each other but um yeah thank you this lady here please yeah on this left hand side yeah down this side just down there on the right hand side thank you okay okay um we we talked a little bit about whether um whether the Sheep farmer should get the grazing for free or not is it time that arable Farmers started paying the Sheep Farmers uh for for the value that they put in and what is the NSA doing about um promoting those benefits to help the Sheep Farmers I think it's just a stupid idea I was going to say yes and close the session there and then but actually actually I think it's a very good question and I think you're right and I think it's actually where do you place the value we're actually still trying to it's it's difficult within a rotation uh so we've actually only done one and a half rotations since we've had sheep on the farm and really I feel we've got to go free to really understand what benefit they're adding so is really difficult but I think it's a really good question and I think absolutely definitely needs valuing more yeah definitely Robert anything to add on that no I agree I think um uh well obviously I agree the uh I think um over the years particular this year it sort of dawned on me actually you know what the L say that um I've been a lot more um or less Keen to actually you know be going out and and when we first started you would get out and find places and you're happy to pay hat it to do it and the rest of it and and get stuck in and everything else but I think more and more more more people sort of say when you come and sort of graze this off it will say you know save mowing it or something like that or will you come and you know can we graze this it's you know gone too far or feel like you're doing a job for somebody are then do starting to feel more and more reluctant to to to be paying as much as perhaps we have done so I think that I think hopefully that you know that's that M that relationship can become more and more Mutual really and benefit of each other um and it's it's interesting a lot of my friends Al around stuff arable farmers and a couple of have have said that you know you know people should be paying you and um you sort of laugh off and then you start thinking actually perhaps they should be you know so I think it's an interesting point and it'll be interested to see where as it as it goes forward another five years perhaps you know where we are where we are at that point I don't know comes back to John what John said really is understanding the value isn't it it takes some time to learn the value really but um in terms of what we're doing then um you know we I mentioned this uh marrying up buau that we're developing we've also got a report here if anyone wants to pick one up uh it's called um it's it's about the role of sheep within Aral rotations really so uh again we'll carry on on that theme for some time and if anyone wants to come to the the Sheep event on the 30th of July at morvin at the three County show Grand again this will be a topic that will be up for discussion there as well so uh thank you very much for attending and thank you very much to John and and Robert
